How has it been since your retirement?
We are moving on by the grace of God because the grace of God is sufficient for me. What kills faster is when one does not prepare for retirement and when one lives above his or her means. When you prepare and put your trust in God, you will tell a happy story.
So what have you been doing since you retired?
As you can see, I am trying to settle some things and put my office together. I have an office here in Lagos and in Ibadan. After putting them in proper shape, then I will know what next to do. In the meantime, some Pentecostals have approached me on lecturing in their seminary. I have accepted but you know it’s demanding. I also have to carve out time for myself to rest. Rest is sweet after labour; I have used this body very well and I give glory to God.
As you see all that is happening in Nigeria at this time, what comes to your mind?
What comes to my mind is that the end-time is approaching. We are in trouble! And that because there is the absence of God in our lives; there is absence of God in our nation; there is absence of God in our leadership. The problem of Nigeria is the problem of leadership and we have to do something about it urgently if we really want Nigeria to move forward. Even at the family level, there is leadership problem; husbands are not real husbands again, wives are not real wives again. Even in the church, leadership is our problem.
Then there is political leadership problem. Look at the problem Boko Haram has created. Of course, it is a man-made problem. It is the neglect of education, when you don’t give youths education; you are preparing them for war or revolution. So also when you don’t give hope to the poor. The Northern oligarchy brought nothing but hopelessness to their youths. They are giving them fish instead of teaching them how to fish.I am telling you that the armed robbery and kidnapping that we see today are by products of unemployment.
I was unemployed for years after school; so unemployment does not mean one should go and be an armed robber or a kidnapper. But we have removed God from our education; the education we are giving to our young ones today is the education without God. Since government took over schools they have removed God from our education, they don’t teach religious knowledge again. The education we are giving to our young ones today is education without God. Why will they not go into crime?
The leaders we have today do not have the fear of God; you wouldn’t embezzle pension money if you have the fear of God. After working for 35 to 45years and retiring with no gratuity or pension, how can someone say; ‘I pledge’? Which country does he pledge to? How can such a person be happy?
You have said that the problem of Nigeria is bad leadership, is that to say that the present government is not God fearing; even though it is led by a Christian?
Let me tell you, even though you have forty people in government, including the ministers, special advisers and so forth. If five people are God fearing, their politics would be different. We have two principal religions in this country, when crimes are committed, read their names, they are either Christians or Muslims. Don’t they go to churches or mosques? Where is the tenet of their religion? Do they carry their religion into politics? That is why I’m saying that leadership is the problem, that is; leadership without God. Let me tell you, the problems we are having today was not created by Jonathan. They have been there before he came into power; it is an accumulated problem. Boko Haram didn’t start today; how about the other religious crisis we have been having in the North? Did anybody care? Remember the Miss World beauty pageant riot; many people died because of it. How about the OIC crises, many people died because of it. Did anybody care then?
Let people who fear God rule; give people light, give them good roads, provide employment and put food on their tables. When the righteous is in power the people rejoice but when bad people rule people groan. I pity the leadership, I pity Jonathan. The problem we are having dates back to so many years. We sowed winds, now we are reaping whirlwind.
When Boko Haram was bombing churches, who cared? When they were killing in Mandala, Kano and other places, did anybody cry? Now that they are killing Emirs, they are now crying. When suicide bombers go the market they don’t want to know if the people there are Christians or Muslims.When they go to the garage they don’t want to know if they are Christians or Muslims. Now the northern leaders know we have problems.
Our political leaders are not sincere; they use most of these people as political thugs. We created monsters that we cannot handle again. That is why I am talking about leadership; there is leadership failure. We don’t get to hear anything about embezzled money. Sanusi exposed one the other day and nobody cared. People are dying of hunger and unemployment. Aged people are dying because they do not receive pension and gratuity. Do not trade the blames on any party or president. It is a general problem.
Some people have accused the President of being weak and fickle-minded, not removing the bad eggs in his cabinet and that the problem of insurgency in the north has escalated because he is afraid of hurting the sponsors, even though he knows them. What is your take on this?
I’m telling you, if you are afraid of hurting people, you can’t succeed as a leader.
Would you say that President Jonathan is weak?
Well, I wouldn’t say yes or no now. Nigerians are perfidious; we are worse than the Jews. I am telling you that the enemies of PDP are not APC but the members of PDP themselves. APC is even tolerant of them as our nation’s watchdog. But we have a set of undisciplined people who do not love the country. They are not giving Mr. President the right advice. One military president once said; if I fail, it is because my advisers have failed.
Those who are advising Jonathan are the ones who are weak and selfish. You know if you have good advisers, you will move mountains. We often close our eyes and pretend as if we do not know the truth. If a minister misbehaves, touch that minister. Nigeria is greater than any minister. If money is lost, find out and expose me if I’m corrupt, just like Sanusi did. But they will not do that. He who comes to equity must come with clean hands. That is it!
Does that mean that the President lacks the will power to deal with corruption in his cabinet because he is also guilty of corruption?
I have told you why I have sympathy for him because he is surrounded by weaklings and deceitful people who are telling him lies. What he is to do now, is to create a new faction of disciplined people, technocrats and listen at least to people. The opponents may be too critical, but look at what they say so you can learn from it. When people criticise me, I don’t hate my critics.Of course, I look at what I can learn from them so that I can move forward. This country needs to move forward. I am almost sure that even if an Angel comes to rule us in Nigeria, we will make that Angel fall because we are too selfish. Jonathan should not allow himself to be deceived, that’s just it.
At the onset of Boko Haram insurgency, something could have been done but people were saying No! Give them amnesty. If we had dealt with it immediately; we would not have these killings we are having now. I understand 20 women were kidnapped again few days ago. These people have husbands and children. I was the one that shouted against amnesty for Boko Haram insurgents. During the era of Niger Delta militants, they fought for a purpose that everybody could identify with. Ken Saro Wiwa fought for it. The people in Bayelsa, Ogoni land and others experienced severe hardship due to land pollution, bad roads and others.
They could not do fishing, they could not do farming. Everything had almost collapsed because of environmental pollution. And you say they should not cry? They had to cry out so people could hear their voices. At least, they were not killing people; they were not throwing bombs into the markets and garages; they were not burning churches. All they wanted was for government to listen to them.
But these Boko Haram insurgents are out to foist their religion on others. They have mentioned one or two names and indicted them as sponsors. What did our leaders do about it? When I spoke at the Independence celebration, I asked some pertinent questions – where do these people get food to eat and fuel to run their vehicles? Where do they get money to buy the weapons? These are the questions we should ask but some people are not asking that; they are saying amnesty should be given to them.
These insurgents are different from MASSOB and OODUA; those ones have never gone out of their areas to kill. They were only saying they want the building of a nation where no man or woman will be oppressed but with the Boko Haram, it is a different ball game altogether.
The only thing that is good for this country is the national confab. Let us come and talk.
While we are talking, much havoc is being wreaked?
The havoc didn’t just start now; it started many years ago. We have neglected our children too much. Education is power. But when you say Boko is Haram that means book is Haram. If people say book or education is Haram, then there is a problem. I am glad that good Muslims have said it is not. Why do we fight over religion? I am praying with tears, the cries of the poor masses have gone to God because of the Chibok girls and I know God will hear us and rescue them.
We heard lately that some of the abducted girls are pregnant. What is your take on this development?
You are talking about pregnancy; what about venereal and other deadly diseases?
Do you know how many have become widows and widowers because of these few insurgents that have held the whole country to ransom? Why can’t we know their leaders; after all, we know the leaders of other groups, like Fasheun of Odua and Uwazurike of MASSOB. Are they spirits? We should thank God for where we are now. If it was when Middle East was Middle East, only God knows what would have happened by now. I want to advise Federal Government to have the political will to deal with them and their sponsors.
Dialogue is good because of the girls, but that does not erase the fact that the insurgents are criminals. If they concede to the negotiation of releasing criminals to free the girls, it will be bad precedence and other people might come up with something more terrible tomorrow.
Dialogue is good but you can only dialogue with people you know. Let them come out; it is when they come out that we can talk. We shouldn’t put the cart before the horse; the horse should come before the cart. At least let us dialogue. Anything outside the dialogue is nothing. Release family members, then we deal with the principal members of the insurgents.
We need the girls back; so government should be very careful, they should release the family members of the insurgents; at least they didn’t ask them to go and kill.
Somebody recently accused the church generals of not calling a solemn assembly of believers to come together to pray?
They are ignorant; they don’t read papers or watch television. We have done that several times as CAN. We are doing prayers at individual, family, state and federal levels. The CAN President has called for fasting and prayers. God will certainly fight for us. Quote me. If the insurgents say they don’t want to listen, God will touch them bitterly just as He touched the heart-hardened Pharaoh. We have had meetings with Senior Islamic clerics and scholars and they have all condemned these acts of terrorism.
Northerners should be more cohesive, they should be their brother’s keeper. This kind of thing cannot happen in other parts of the nation without the people there tracing the perpetrators of evil down to their lineage. How will some people be committing crime without people knowing them? When the Igbos were fighting, they did not fight cowardly, they didn’t use religion to fight; they had their facts. Let the insurgents allow their God to fight for himself. “Any God you fight for is a smaller god.” Boko Haram should stop all these in the name of religion, what they are doing is against Islam. For each soul they kill, they will answer on the last day.
Do you think government should impose total emergency rule in states like in the North-East instead of allowing the democratic structures to remain?
Go and investigate, we have seen it. Let the police purge themselves first. To me it is not the answer to it. Total and complete emergency rule is not the answer. That is why I say the northern leaders should be cohesive. What is the government doing, who will withdraw the security people. That is why you can’t trust the military force because some of them are not patriotic. Some of them are religious bigots who listen to the voice of their masters.
You will agree with me that this is not the best of time for anyone to be the President of Nigeria. What is your advice to Dr. Goodluck Jonathan?
First, let him continue to wait on the Lord more than ever before because this is a dangerous time. Moses waited and looked unto the Lord. Second, he should beware of sycophants around him, calling black white because some people around him are deceivers, who love themselves more than Nigeria. Third, I want him to be a little bit more tolerant of the opposition. I have never seen any opposition as tough as that of Chief Obafemi Awolowo’s party. In times like this, he should pay attention to the needs, problems and social welfare of the poor masses. It is alarming, Nigerians are suffering, the roads are not good, no jobs, no electricity. Note that it is social and economic problems that gave birth to Boko Haram insurgency as we have now.
As a pastor, I advise him to think less. He did not originate these problems, why should he die? He is just a victim of circumstances and history because the problem escalated during his time. Let him be close to his God. Also, I must say that he doesn’t have good advisers and he is trying not to offend some persons.
If I were Mr. President and I am told that one of my Ministers is being indicted for corruption, that person will not stay a day longer in my cabinet; no matter how close. Remember Obasanjo fired one of his close aides for misappropriating funds.That is what I expect from the incumbent President if truly he wants to fight corruption.
Would you support that he runs for a second term?
I would not advise him not to go for the second term but he should ask God to give this country a leader after His own heart, regardless of his tribal or religious background.
You said earlier on that the enemies of PDP are its members, not the opposition party. What is your take on the choice of Fayose as the gubernatorial candidate of PDP in the forthcoming Ekiti State election?
Why was Fayose suspended in the first place? Let PDP tell us. It could be that Fayose was guiltless. PDP owes the people of Ekiti and Nigerians for suspending him. That means he was right and they were wrong. If not, they should tell us what actually went wrong. Why did they impose a state of emergency in Ekiti State? Why did they remove Fayose in the first place? They should tell us the truth.
What would you say concerning the appointment of Sanusi Lamido as the new Emir of Kano, especially in view of the ongoing protests by some factions of Kano State?
It is normal to have opposition in every appointment. Even in the villages and families, when an appointment is made people still protest. I only advise him not to be holier than Mohammed, let him be liberal. He is intelligent and brave.
He should also be a natural traditional ruler.When you are a traditional ruler you belong to everybody. He should also embrace everybody because Kano is a cosmopolitan state where a good number of people from different tribes and religions live. He should be religious tolerant. He should be fair to all.
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